Jim Mattis & Ryan Holiday: War, Strategy, and Stoic Leadership
“Jim Mattis and Ryan Holiday” | Full Episode 3.20.26 | Firing Line with Margaret Hoover | PBS
Margaret Hoover interviews General James Mattis and Ryan Holiday about war, leadership, and strategic thinking. Mattis argues that the Iranian regime wages total war against its own people and the United States, and he states that the regime will likely persist despite internal fragility. He emphasizes that U.S. strategy lacks clarity and that success requires strong alliances and the rebuilding of long-term trust.
Meanwhile, Ryan Holiday criticizes modern leadership culture for prioritizing impulse over planning and stresses the importance of humility, introspection, and Stoic discipline. Both speakers highlight the unpredictability of war and the necessity of historical awareness in decision-making. Mattis underscores that allies remain essential to achieving strategic outcomes, while Holiday frames ethical duty as adherence to values regardless of pressure. Together, they present a case for disciplined leadership, strategic coherence, and moral responsibility in times of conflict.
Interview Highlights
The nature of the Iranian regime and conflict
Margaret Hoover (2:29–2:32): “What have you learned about the enemy that America is now fighting?”
James Mattis (2:35–3:59): “Well, first of all, the Iran regime that we are fighting, we are not fighting the Iranian people. Eighty, ninety percent of them would get rid of that regime just as fast or faster than we would…They declared war on us through their proxies and they have been at war with us ever since…I can give you the murderous attacks that go over decades that they have conducted not just against the Americans but against Israelis, against Arabs… there is probably no end to their hostility with that regime in charge.”
Why the regime endures
Margaret Hoover (2:29–2:32): “What have you learned about the enemy that America is now fighting?”
James Mattis (4:17–5:17): “This is a regime… they have a list of what are the indicators of an autocrat staying in power… One of those indicators outweighs all the rest. Will the regime murder their own people at the industrial level? If they will, they’re going to stay in power. You have an unarmed population up against a very well-armed regime that is fighting a total war right now, total war. We’re fighting a limited war…It’s going to be a darn difficult problem.”
Will the regime break?
Margaret Hoover (5:30–5:38): “Is it your understanding… that it seems plausible that their will is unbroken?”
James Mattis (5:44–6:17): “I think it would be very unlikely that this regime would break right now. But like Hemingway’s point about how a man went broke gradually and then suddenly…it is a very fragile regime in terms of its grip, but it’s strong enough with its murder and all. They’ve told… the Iranian parents, don’t let your sons and daughters demonstrate, because we will shoot them… So no, they’re not going to go away anywhere. Right now, I would not think that they’re going to break.”
Strategic clarity and the “end state” problem
Margaret Hoover (6:38–6:47): “How do you understand… the Operation Epic Fury’s purpose and desired end state?”
James Mattis (6:58–7:56): “It’s murky. It is murky right now to understand what we in the military call the commander’s intent. And we’ve heard things like unconditional surrender, we will select the next leader. We’ve heard all sorts of things, frankly. And it’s been murky and it’s hard to articulate an end state that’s achievable…right now, yeah, it’s pretty confused.”
Stoicism vs impulse-driven leadership
Margaret Hoover (8:18–8:25): “Is there still an opportunity to communicate with the American public?”
Ryan Holiday (8:26–9:55): “Well, probably seems murky because it is murky. And we have this sort of part of our culture right now that seems to think that planning and strategy and perspective…I mean, you have one of the richest people in the world saying empathy will be the downfall of civilization… the point is that you’re not an egghead or a loser or a dweeb because you wanna step back and think about things and you wanna have a plan. Because ultimately you have to communicate those plans to the people down the line. And I think we are dealing with the consequences of the sort of celebration and raising up of passion and emotion and impulse and gut, which the Stoics would have told us to be quite suspicious of. and we are raising this over strategic thinking, forethought, expert knowledge, a sense of history. Yet the biggest thing we are missing is humility; a sense of limitation and weakness… to proceed confidently that matches strength against weakness, rather than ignorance of weakness or vulnerabilities. And I think we are dealing with that.”
Humility as a strategic virtue
Margaret Hoover (8:18–8:25): “Is there still an opportunity to communicate with the American public?”
Ryan Holiday (9:55–10:29): “And then of course, I think the big thing we’re missing is humility, right? A sense of limitations, a sense of weakness. This isn’t to say that you never proceed because you’re humble, no. Humility allows you to proceed competently knowing that you have a plan that matches strength against weakness as opposed to the delusion that ego brings which is in complete ignorance of your vulnerabilities and weaknesses.”
Will the regime fall?
Margaret Hoover (10:32–10:34): “How would you estimate the likelihood of the regime’s falling?”
James Mattis (10:38–11:03): “I do not believe the regime will fall in the near future. Now understand war is fundamentally unpredictable. Fundamentally. That is part of war. So what I’m saying could be completely reversed in 24 hours. But I think it is very unlikely that that regime will fall any time soon. I think we’re going to have to deal with it.”
Why allies are essential
Margaret Hoover (11:53–11:58): “Can the United States succeed in this war without allies, other than Israel?”
James Mattis (11:03–11:35; 12:02): “I’d suggest that America has got some of the greatest strengths, our economy, our education system. We have ways of engaging with the world no other country has. And yes, we need a very strong military to defend this idea of a democracy. But at the same time, if we don’t use all of our strengths—and there I would point to allies—without them, we’re not going to get there…No.”
Trust breakdown with allies
Margaret Hoover (12:05–12:07): “What is your sense of the biggest concerns from our allies right now?”
James Mattis (12:15–13:42): “America is becoming predatory. America is unreliable. They say one thing and they change seven days later or two days later. So there’s a sense that we are not a reliable security partner right now… …you’re seeing a strategic disconnect…you can’t bring allies on board if they don’t trust you…we’re going to do it at the end of the day with allies, lots of allies.”
Stoic duty and ethical action
Margaret Hoover (21:26–21:28): “What is the duty of those who are serving in the military?”
Ryan Holiday (21:34–22:22): “As General Mattis has said, I think your duty is to hold the line, to live up to the values that you were taught, the oath that you swore… Marcus Aurelius says you do the right thing, whether you’re cold or you’re warm, whether you’re tired or you’re hungry, whether you’re loved for it or despised for it, you got to do the right thing. You got to do what you were trained to do…we have to have both the willingness to look backwards and to study and learn from them… and then we have to have the sort of courage and the conviction to make those hard, right decisions.”
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